A note to the menfolk ~ from a former radical lesbian feminist

Written by Jasmin

Written by Hellena Post

Once upon a time I was a radical lesbian feminist.  I’d come to that position from having indifferent, dodgy, and invisible connections with men in my childhood, having been molested as a child, and probably partly being really pissed off that my dad had left me and died when I was 7. After being brought up a fundamentalist Christian, I rejected the concept that men were better than me because they had a dick.  And when I birthed my first daughter I realised that there was a whole lot more to this mother/birthing/woman thing than I’d been told.  I read ‘Women Who Run With The Wolves’ and Mary Daly, Barbara Walker, Alice Walker, Dale Spender, and a host of other feminist writers, and got really really mad.  Furious that my lineage of strong women had been kept from me.  Enraged that men had taken over the world and turned it into warfare and cruelty.  Brandished the word ‘patriarchy’ as a bludgeon, and attended women’s groups.

Not long after my re-education, I had a fling with a woman and slowly but surely morphed into a lesbian feminist that teetered on the edge of separatism.  I seriously entertained the notion of living a life surrounded by women only, to give my energy to my sisters who had been so oppressed.  I read books on lifting the curse of menstruation, coming to terms with the crone of menopause, and understanding the backlash against feminism in the fashion and cosmetic industries.  I learnt about ancient strong women who had been crucified for their difference, and many a treatise on the ancient matrifocal role models that needed rekindling.  I knew that fat was a feminist issue, and abortions and child care.  I heard about the glass ceiling and the tall poppy syndrome and read books about how the science of gynaecology was rooted in the barbaric acts of footbinding, sutee, the burning times, and genital mutilation.  I knew about equal rights and equal pay, how contraception was a feminist issue as well.  In fact, I learnt that everything to do with a woman and her sexuality were feminist issues – except birth and motherhood – unless it was about throwing off the shackles of them.

Men were the enemy.

They were shallow and aggressive and abusive and rapists and liars and adulterers and threatening and sexist and privileged and everything that was wrong with the world.  There were always a few men that I considered to be ‘worthwhile’, but they always had to endure my rather pointed opinions about their gender as a ticket to my world.  Listen to my conversations with my sisters about the state of the world, with liberal doses of the use of the word patriarchal sprinkled on top.  And I knew an incredible amount of little anecdotes about amazing women who had been fucked over or ignored by men.  If only the goddess would come back and put women in their rightful place as the bosses of everything, then we’d all be a lot happier.

Much to my dismay, I soon learnt that the women’s utopia I’d leapt into wholeheartedly wasn’t all that groovy afterall.  I saw just as much alcoholism, abuse, hypocrisy, gossip, backstabbing and power play as I saw in all the other minority and mainstream groups I’d been a part of.  My relationship broke down, and I had some flings with women and men for a while, and then decided to leave the place where I’d paraded a lot of my different uniforms and badges.  I started off fresh in a different place to try and work out what I really thought about it all.  And one of the first things I realised was that I’d never really had brothers, fathers, or men friends, cause I’d kept them out for years after realising they were all fucked.

And then I met the love of my life.

The first man I’d ever come across who treated me with the utmost respect even though I was ‘easy’.  Who wasn’t afraid of my strength and sexuality.  I was in love.  I went back home and decided I wanted one just like him, but not him cause he was far too damaged.  So I wrote about our time together.  And when the book was done I took myself off on a trip through the desert in January, in my beat up old Gemini that couldn’t go faster than 80km’s an hour or it would overheat.  And I met men and father figures and brothers the whole way up, made peace with my father, and discovered my feminine side, that I’d never felt safe enough to explore before.  I had a cleavage!    And sometimes it proved very handy when it came to getting help and advice from the opposite sex.

On the way home I bumped into my love again, our love story started weaving itself through our lives, and I determined to find out more about how I could love and trust men again.  One of the first things I did was read ‘Manhood’ by Steve Biddulph, and it taught me a lot.  I’d never before pieced together the perception that after the industrial revolution, boys had lost their fathers, brothers, uncles and grand fathers, as they’d all gone off to work.  And in the vacuum of role models they saw in their immediate experience, had to put together these cardboard cutouts that were a pastiche of movies, and books and magazines they read, rather than actual experience. Whereas women had mothers, sisters and grandmothers showing them everyday how to be a woman.  Which I’ve got to say right now, is often how to emotionally manipulate, withdraw affection to get what she wants, steer things in an unnoticeable way, and create a supportive gossipy network of other women to keep fingers to the pulse of their worlds.  At the same time as exploring emotional depths, learning how to keep men happy whilst hiding bits considered unattractive, and creating a supportive network with other women to make sense of the world. (Please understand that I’m talking in broad generalisations here, mixed with my personal experience, and I’m not suggesting this is always the case for women or men, and I’m also talking about myself as well)

When my love and I really seriously got together, we would neither of us have thought we were sexist….yet  I was definitely more pro woman, and he was definitely a bit snarky about women and the way he felt branded as a rapist just cause he had a penis.

I was there when he was crying and howling and beautifully eloquent about how much he loved the planet in all it’s intricacies, yet was the gender associated with despoiling it. 
  Both of us had horrid childhoods that we needed to heal and grow from, and both of us started as we continued, with the policy of no secrets, and the aim of complete personal and couple honesty between us.  I love this man more than any other person I’ve ever come across in my life, and he makes sense to me more than any other as well.  He’s warm and hairy, he’s soft and smells better than anything in the world to me, he’s intelligent and witty and has deep deep thoughts, he has a strong sense of justice and equity for everyone and thing on the planet, he gets angry and grumpy, and he was pissed off with the characters available to him as a man in this period piece, and also with a lot of the attitudes he comes across in women just because of his gender.  The theories I’d spouted for years about men and women were suddenly caustic and prone to causing bruised feelings.  At first I gentled a lot of my theories about men and women just to avoid annoying him, and cause I loved him so much I wanted him to feel good about himself.  But then life stepped in the way to give me some experience.

I was there when he was trying to put together tricky irrigation for a market garden, and had a massive tantrum about how he didn’t know how to do it, and how could he go and ask someone for advice without looking like a dickhead?  He spat about how as a man he was expected to know how to fix a car and a house and put together machines and do all these odd jobs and take charge with sex and work to ‘provide’ …….all without anyone ever really showing him.  He felt like he’d always just been expected to ‘know’ because he was a bloke.  And looked down on if he didn’t know how to perform a ‘manly’ task properly.  We had another fella staying with us at the time, and they both had a session about how hard it was to be a man in our society.

I was there to witness his pain and isolation when as a survivor of abuse from both men and women, he remembered trying to buy a book to help him with his issues, and found they were all addressed to women and agreed that men were the abusers.

I was there when he was crying and howling and beautifully eloquent about how much he loved the planet in all it’s intricacies, yet was the gender associated with despoiling it.

I was there to hear his heartbreaking ache that there were no men in his world that he could look up to and admire.

And around then was when I stopped being sensitive to men because I loved my man, and started being sensitive to men because I was seeing things that didn’t add up.  Like how men are portrayed as unbelievably aggressive, dominating and ‘manly’, or totally bumbling buffoons that never quite get anything right, but are lovable nonetheless.  All the hundreds of little ways that men are told that they’re a bit dumb, as portrayed by main stream media in a ‘mere male’ kinda way.  How we’re meant to be a male dominated society, but there’s no acknowledgement of realistic archetypes for men beyond being the provider, warrior, king or hero.  No equivalent of the cycles of maiden, mother and crone that women experience.  Men often don’t have the emotionally deep friendship networks that women have, so when faced with relationship issues, sexual problems, or struggles with identity, they endure it on their own.  How there’s little importance placed on men as fathers, beyond donating sperm, and then going out to work to pay for what it created.   How thousands of men are scared of touching their children, rough playing with their kids, and showing physical love and comfort for fear of being suspected of being an abuser.  And I could never quite get that we lived in a patriarchal society, supposedly dominated by men, yet men who didn’t fit in with the prescribed roles and were feminine, gentle, alternative, anarchistic, or deviated from the very narrow allowances for what men were…….were shamed and given a drubbing as bad as any given to a woman or child.

Where is the representation of fathers in the world of birthing, and why are the fathers often invisible in birthing stories?  Where is the representation of fathers in bringing up children, and how can their importance and gifts go largely unacknowledged?  I’ll never forget reading a description of manhood by Vicki Noble in the Motherpeace tarot cards, that described men living in a tribal situation as the hunters and musicians, the inventors and the crafters, the even tempered conspirers of fun with the children.  And I’ve bounced this concept off men along the way, and virtually every one could relate to this kind of approach rather than that of lord, king and rule maker.  Shrugging off the assumed masculine mantle of power is not a difficult journey for many.

I started talking about these things with other men, and was surprised by the effusive gratitude they had for a strong woman being kind to their gender.  We were locals in a country pub, and having a drink one day, a fella named Hairy Dave told me to go read a joke on a board at the back of the pub.  He told me I’d love it.  So I did.  There was a sheet of paper, that read “Men are like a deck of cards.  You need a heart to love one, a diamond to marry one, a club to beat them with, and a spade to bury them”.  I thought it was horrible.  When I came back he was already laughing, expecting me to join in.  “What did you think?  Funny eh!” he said.  “Nope” I said.  “I think it’s terrible, and if anyone said stuff like that about my man I’d slap em”.  You shoulda seen the look on his face.  “Really?”  he said.  “You really didn’t think it was funny?”  He couldn’t believe it.  He ended up kneeling in front of me and kissing my hand, he was so overjoyed that a woman could possibly not snigger at the chance of having a dig at men.  Which opened up a great discussion about men and women and all the rest of it.

And I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy the ‘Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus’ trip.  I think it’s just another brick in the wall of our disease of separation.  And from life experience, I don’t think there’s any difference between the genders (apart from their bodies) that contemplation, honest communication, and deep introspection couldn’t bridge, for both genders.  And that whole ‘if women ran the world there’d be no more war’ thing gets up my nose too.  Tell that to the Amazonians, and Boudicca, and Kali the Destroyer, and Fu Hao of the Shang Dynasty, and the Spartan Princess Arachidamia, and Margaret Thatcher, and Condoleeza Rice, and Bronwyn Bishop, and Australia’s current Prime Minister, and Ghandi, and Buddha and Christ……they were all dudes that said not to kill people weren’t they?  It’s not gender that creates war and the separations between us all, it’s hierarchies.  By their very nature there’s someone at the top, and a whole bunch of disempowered folk underneath, that are ordered to do things they would not necessarily do if left to their own devices.  We could all choose instead the model of the wheel for decision making and creating order from the chaos in our societies…..a wheel where every spoke is equally important and necessary to the whole, and none is above or below the other.

At this point I need to mention that I personally also feel let down by the womens movement when it comes to my experiences with birthing and motherhood.  After 8 birthing experiences and learning from my children and witnessing the incredible influence of a father in a family that hasn’t been seperated, and through observing the vast amount of self awareness, contemplation and pattern busting that’s ensued, I just can’t buy the feminist opinion that motherhood and birth are ‘lesser’ paths, and that if I was really empowered I’d be Prime Minister.  Instead I believe now from my own experience, that motherhood and fatherhood and birth and children are actually as valid a path to enlightenment as any other, and in my opinion at least, far superior to most.  In actualising my evolutionary mammalian imperative, I find my perspectives on a vast array of matters and my self awareness, fears faced, and internal tool kit to be well worth the effort of taking the path less travelled.  And I’ve witnessed a similar journey in my love and the father of our children.

And more recently I’ve been really tripping out about circumcision.  It’s Male Genital Mutilation. And it happens within days of being born.  99.9 percent of the willies that I’ve seen in my life have been circumcised.  (And I’ve seen a lot……I had to fuck my way out of total fundamentalist Christian sexual repression don’t you know)  Without anaesthetic.  A sexual, intimate, uber sensitive part of a man’s body and sexuality is cut off.   Like a male friend once said….”How could I not have a problem with men?  The first man I met pulled me out of my mother and slapped me on the arse, and the second one cut off my foreskin….”  I’m still totally stunned and overwhelmed by the fact that as a general rule, and with everything that is discussed about Female Genital Mutilation and the repercussions of it……that there is no fuss made about circumcisions which no-one can deny is the same thing.  The same thing.  With no help groups and books and seminars and news reports and documentaries created about it.  Barely any men are given sympathy for the mutilation they endured as a baby, a totally sentient, sensitive, and hyper aware little person, days after emerging from the womb.  That shit totally trips me out.

I’ve also had this theory for a while, that movements happen in three waves. 

We haven’t been under the rule of Patriarchy, but of Powerarchy.  And because we’ve been so busy hunting the oppressor behind the guise of men or religion or science……..we’ve neglected to notice that the oppressor was within us all along in the form of our attitudes.
The first movement is the radical extreme that people are shocked by, the second movement is the main stream that takes a little longer to get it, and the third movement is the people who were dead against it when it happened, but get it last as everyone else around them is already there.  So if you applied that theory to feminism, the first wave was the Suffragettes leading up to the radical 60’s, and then the concept became more mainstream, and now it’s common to see even the radical right roll their eyes and snipe a bit about their menfolk.  And the result is that men have received body blow after body blow after body blow about who they are, what’s expected of them, and what they ‘should’ be.

And I’ve known a lot of sensitive and deep thinking men who are really disturbed and distraught by this.  And can sometimes suffer the death of a thousand cuts, a thousand barbs about the thuggery of their gender, and how much they have to be ashamed of.

Through my life experience and interest led research over the years, I declare that I think the term Patriarchy is misleading.  I don’t believe that the enemy that we’ve all sought out in each other all these long years is gender related, or religiously related, or sexually related, or environmentally related or anything at all to do, with anything other than the attitudes of power hunger, greed, control and hierarchies, that started to hold sway around 2,000 years ago, using many different vehicles, but the main one being the body of the Roman Catholic church, created in 325ad at the Council of Nicea, when the flagging Roman Empire voted on which religion to use to establish firm hierarchical control of the state.  We started to get split up from our family groups and communities, taught to give loyalty to those based on ideals rather than heart, and then during the Industrial Revolution got further splintered into men going off there to work, and women going there to keep house, and children going off there to school.  We haven’t been under the rule of Patriarchy, but of Powerarchy.  And because we’ve been so busy hunting the oppressor behind the guise of men or religion or science……..we’ve neglected to notice that the oppressor was within us all along in the form of our attitudes.  We’re all disempowered in a society that doesn’t accept us for who we truly are.  Because we are all unique sparks of the universe, living an earthly life to express infinity.  Men, Women, Children, all of us have our hurts and our repressions, suppressions and oppressions, and none of us are free until our true and authentic selves are respected.

So as a woman who was once upon a time a radical lesbian feminist…….

I’d like to say I’m sorry.

To the men who feel so alone and isolated within their pain that they see no other course than to end their lives.  To the men who have dissolved into fear in the bottom of a beer glass.  To the men who have to go off to work when their heart stays at home.  To the boys who listen to their mothers talking to their girlfriends about the latest bastard thing their man did.  To the men who listen to a thousand reports about another man somewhere who did something bad.  To the men desperately wanting a boundary and never getting one.  To the men who feel closed out and blamed by a sisterhood of tight knit women.  To the men that desperately want to be fathers, but are kept away from it by one or another heirarchy……..

I see you and I love you and I know you really wish it could be better.

I’ve got five sons and I want them to grow free and respectful of themselves and each other, and with a sense of purpose and of being who they really are.  In fact I think I’d really like that for everyman.  And woman.  And child.  And living creature.  And planet.  And universe, within which we are one……..

 

“This piece is dedicated to my love Currawong, and in memory of the beautiful Michael Lusty.  Who took his life before I could have this conversation with him.  May he find the peace and love that he thought he’d lost…….

Image Source: Pixabay

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About the author

Jasmin

Jasmin is a specialist men’s coach who supports men in all aspects of relationships, but specifically those who are going through high conflict separation and divorce. She is also a dedicate advocate for services for men and their children who have been victims of domestic violence and abuse.

Jasmin helps men who are struggling and feeling lost and alone, to move to a place of acceptance and confidence so they can move ahead and live a life consistent with their values and beliefs. She believes strongly in the power of overcoming past hurts through empathy and compassion.

She is a mother of two, author, presenter and coach. She lives in the idyllic coastal town of Merimbula, NSW, Australia.

*All written material on Relating To Men is subject to copyright to the author.

  • Jack V. Butler Jr.

    Thank you. Apology accepted.

  • Grandpapa Tyler RJ Lorge I

    YE ARE MENTAL! BEING CIRCUMSIZED IS NOT THE SAME AS MUTILATION DEAR! GEE WIZ , GET SOME HONEST EDUCATION ON THIS! IVE HERD MORE WOMEN SAY THAT UNCIRCSIZED MEN SMELL FUNNY DOWN THERE! IVE HERD MANY MALE FRIENDS SAY THEY HURT MORE BECAUSE OF THE EXTRA SKIN AND HAVE TO CLEAN MORE ! CHRIST JESUS WAS CIRCUMSIZED AND ALMIGHTY GOD KNEW THIS! SO I FOLLOW GOD NOT YE CRAZY LIBERAL NOTIONES! IM SO PROUD IM CIRCUMSIZED AND IT NEVER HURT ME , I JUST FEEL CLEANER DEAR! AND YE ARE DEAD WRONG < MEN AND WOMENS BRAINS ARE NOT THE SAME AND THANK ALMIGHTY GOD FOR THAT! THERE IS NO FEMINEN SIDE TO ME NOR MY BROTHERS OR SONS 🙂 BUT THERES SIN OF SATAN TRYING TO TELL YE THESE LIES! ! AND CHRIST JESUS IS A MAN DEAR (NOT JUST A DUDE AS YE CALL HIM ! 🙁 ! IM GLAD THE WOMEN IN MY WHOLE LIFE WERE HAPPY BEING A WOMEN , AND VERY HAPPY THERE MAN WAS A MALE 🙂 YOULL NEVER MAKE US THE SAME DEAR! AND OUR BRAINS ARE MORE DIFFERENT THEN YOURS ! SO ITS MORE THEN THE ORGANS DEAR! ITS ALL MALE JUST LIKE ALL FEMALE! NOT ALIKE EVER! THATS WHAT MAKES IT SO BEAUTIFUL ! +++

  • Dad

    As the recovering son of an ardent feminist who has to deal with being on the losing end of gender politics every day in my job at the university—well said.

  • Jon

    The fact that it took you that long to realize the BLATANTLY obvious is what’s part of the problem. What exactly are you looking for here? Pity, understanding, or dare I say…forgiveness?

    Lol don’t hold your breath. People like you are pathetic. You show a clear lack of emotional intelligence for allowing yourself to succumb to such trash and then to turn and spout its nonsense unapologetically. When I talk with our Portfolio Managers in private and they laugh about the pandering to the lowest common denominator, YOU are the exact type of person they are referring to.

    “I would like to say that I’m sorry.”

    That’s cute. But actions speak louder than words. You’re actually sorry? Then have the balls (sorry, is that phrase too masculine for you??) to answer this simple question: what net positive benefit have you provided to men in response to the negative you, like so many other “valiant” feminists, created? You popped out 5 kids? Congrats; woman have been doing that for hundreds of thousands of years.

    What rallies have you attended? What people have you sat down with to reverse the poison you’ve spread? What time and money have you donated to the men’s rights groups you allegedly now support? What are you actively doing to make amends for the ridiculous, borderline laughable bullshit you spread while the efficient members of society actually went about adding value to the economy?

    Until you have a viable answer to this, you are just another number, like every other “activist” we’ve vanquished by simply adhering to logic and reason. And no, I won’t sleep over People like you (don’t flatter yourself); efficient people know what’s worth their time and what isn’t.

    You want forgiveness? We’ll believe it when we see it.

    • artiefischel

      Have you actually looked at this website?

    • You know, your comment is the reason I almost never published this. What she has done or not done is none of your business. But what I see is the bravery we in the men’s movement have craved. For feminists (radical or not) to stand up and see the wrongs and be better people by choosing an egalitarian point of view.

      The only forgiveness I see required here is yours, for yourself for the path that YOU chose that has left you in this state to be so hateful. Don’t think you did? Then what makes you think she chose her path?

      • Goran Boskovic

        Jasmin,
        dozens of millions of fathers and men has been discriminated and deprived of basic human rights. There is no simple “I’m sorry’ to eradicate accumulated hatred.
        Feminism should be and will be recognised as radical hate movement , and demolished one way or the other ih next 10-15 years. I’m not calling for violence – I’m simply stated the fact.
        Other way will be implementation of sharia law, in Europe it wil be soon if radical feminism and cultural marxism continues as they do now…

        • We all make changes in the way we can. As much as I agree with you on the bigger picture, no woman goes into it knowing or believing that it’s a hate group. When we ALL have compassion things will get better. I for one am not going to lower the standards and expect things to improve.

          • Goran Boskovic

            Women will fight feminism, or not. If not, they will lose all rights.
            Even feminists know that women have rights because (western civilisation) men has been willing to give them rights. Why else feminist these days have “HeForShe” and “Only men can stop rape” and all other man-shaming campaigns?
            Where si now Grrrl power and WeCanDoBetterThanMen claptrap…?

            Try to understand that modern men do not trust women anymore. They will not protect and provide anymore. There is no way back, no chance that men will be fooled to do and sacrifice themselves again to what society needs – only because some (or even most) women after lifelong radical feminism is “sorry”.
            This game is over.
            It is now on women to prove to men they are worthy of this sacrifice. And even then, most men will be sceptical and unwilling. After 40 years of spilling hatred, how many to bring confidence back?

          • Probably none if you keep with that line of thinking. Look, we get it. But just like you can’t fix the past, neither can any of us. We move forward or we stay stuck in hatred. Exactly what do you expect one woman to do? If not make a stand on her own turf, then what? I can assure you that as a woman who speaks out very vocally on men’s issues – it takes nerves of steel to combat what we do. Hellana is no different, neither are the thousands of women who actively participate in the MHRM. What your missing in your gross generalisations is that this burden is on every one of us individually to make a stand. Then and only then will we have unity.

          • Devn

            I’m all for freedom of speech – let the woman have her say. Let her post the article, but then let the chips fall where they may. Please stop shaming and badgering the people who don’t agree with the piece. That’s the other side of freedom of speech – sometimes people will say things you don’t like. Get over it – you’re a mod, you’re supposed to keep the death threats and trolls out, but that’s about it. Let these men have their say – after all, they are MEN. You know, the whole reason we’re here?

            “I can assure you that as a woman who speaks out very vocally on men’s issues – it takes nerves of steel to combat what we do” – Again, typical female solipsism 101. So your life is harder than the man who was divorce raped, bankrupted, and alienated from his kids? Because you got a few bad comments from feminists?

          • Andybob

            Stick to your guns Ms Newman. There can be no lowering of standards unless we actually want the MHRM to devolve into a destructive minefield of irrationality. This simply isn’t the way forward and, like you, I am determined to move forward stridently and effectively.

            I wonder if some of these commenters know that Dr Warren Farrell used to be president of the New York Chapter of N.O.W. – the largest feminist organization in the world. He took that path because, at the time, he thought it was the right thing to do – until he realized that it wasn’t. Like Dr Farrell, MHRAs who are former feminists are such assets because they know this ideology and their methods better than almost anyone.

            All I know about Helen Post, apart from what she wrote in her post, is that she has become another dissenting voice against feminist bigotry – it simply doesn’t matter how she got here or how long it took her. She advocates for compassion and respect for all, which sounds very reasonable to me.

            Many are bitterly angry with feminists, and most of them have every right to be. However, there has to be something beyond that point that is focused on opposing feminism constructively. Otherwise, websites like yours would have no real value other than to provide a place to diffuse rage – and you are far too active an activist to waste your time with that.

            So, as I said before, good on you for sticking to your guns and sticking up for Helen Post. Great job with your website, Ms Newman. Every post adds value to the MHRM. There is a reason why I mentioned you out in my book, along with Karen Straughan, Tara Palmatier, Helen Wallen and Suzanne McCarley as one of the five most respected and influential women who advocate for men’s rights in the world. It is for your rational and eloquent voice which you refuse to compromise, and for your hard work and commitment.

            Thank you so much for what you do, Ms Newman. You’re an inspiration to MHRAs everywhere.

          • Cheers buddy. Oh you did? I’m honoured to be in their company. Send me a link and I will get a copy 🙂

          • Andybob
          • Thanks! I have an Amazon login problem (going on 2 years now) but I will try and resolve it.

          • Jon

            “No woman goes into it knowing or believing that it’s a hate group.”

            – That is a facile argument; the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Said differently, everyone can find a way to justify their actions. Everyone is also to be held accountable for said actions, REGARDLESS of their intentions.

            The right and justified are rewarded; the wrong punished. Such is life.

      • LemonSloth

        Agreed, that was an awful response to an otherwise powerful and honest piece. Most people never go through a period of self-reflection like that, or allow themselves to admit they ever made a mistake & that alone deserves respect.

        • Jon

          “Most people never go through a period of self-reflection like that,”

          – That’s because most of us never needed one. Most of us are in constant states of self-reflection, to avoid careening into insanity like Western Feminism.

          “And that alone deserves respect.”

          – The only she deserves a lengthy, healthy dose of public shame.

      • Devn

        “You know, your comment is the reason I almost never published this” – shaming, guilting

        “The only forgiveness I see required here is yours” – forcing compliance with your own thoughts, no tolerance for dissenting views
        Jeez, this is textbook female BS 101. I don’t know this site that well, but I honestly can’t believe they made you a mod. For all I know, you started the whole damn website, and that scares the hell out of me for the MRM.

        • Paul Johnson

          This is her site.

      • You should have stuck with never publishing it then, bitch.

      • Jon

        “What she has done or not done is none of your business.”

        – Actually, if her actions have directly led to hatred or sexism towards men (MY sex), then it is EXACTLY my business.

        “The only forgiveness I see required here is yours.”

        – Yeah, it’s not the job or requirement of those wronged to forgive. In fact, the wronged aren’t required to do anything; that’s what happens when you’re in the right. And it doesn’t matter if I was wronged personally (not here, at least); by her apologizing to men as a group, she is admitting to guilt against all of us, and I am under no obligation whatsoever to forgive. Nor will I. And I couldn’t care less if you like that or not.

        “Then what makes you think she chose her path?”

        – Unless someone physically forced her to do something, then she chose it. Self-awareness is the responsibility of the individual, regardless of what they have been through. If a person cannot live their life through an objective lens, then frankly, they need to step aside and make room for those who can.

    • Andybob

      I’m sorry Jon, but your comment doesn’t make any sense to me.
      Many of the most noted MHRAs are former feminists. They are people who bought the ‘feminism is about equality’ meme because it seemed to fit so well into their egalitarian outlook, not because they liked to see the rights and welfare of men and boys trampled upon.
      Feminism has long been a vast propaganda machine which has had decades to perfect a narrative of trying to achieve fairness that appears to be backed up by hidden/false/manipulated statistics and the approval of influential entities. It’s ability to brainwash some very intelligent people is the secret of its all-pervasive success. I can take some of the people who eventually come to see it for what it really is longer to turn against it than others.
      Some experience a particular event which reveals the truth about feminism in one fell swoop, while others, like myself – someone who never actually identified as a feminist – become slowly aware that they are being continually lied to and fed an endless stream of offensive and obvious rubbish, and decide to investigate this ideology for themselves. We all got to this point along different routes. The only thing that matters is that we arrived safely.
      Former feminists are some of the MHRM’s greatest assets, and Helen Post may well turn out to be one. Discouraging her in any way is foolish and self-defeating. It took a lot of courage to publicly rebuke radical feminism under her own name. Welcome Ms Post. You will find many former feminists here and elsewhere in the MHRM. In fact, some are still recovering.

      • Jon

        “The only thing that matters is that we arrived safely.”

        – This is blatantly, patently false. “I may have have ruined the lives of one or two men in my journey of self-discovery about feminism…but hey, all that matters is I arrived, right guys?!” Come on, Andy…that is plain ridiculous. What matters is what we have done in the aggregate, regardless of where we arrive.

        “It took a lot of courage to publicly rebuke radical feminism under her own name.”

        – Yeah, I’ll be sure to send flowers for her bravery.

        “Discouraging her in any way is foolish and self-defeating. ”

        – Assuming we actually needed the ‘help’ of incompetent fools like her, you might have a point.

        “You will find many former feminists here and elsewhere in the MHRM. In fact, some are still recovering.”

        -Their problem, not mine. They created their own problems while hating me during the ride. I couldn’t care any less about any of them.

        “Welcome Ms. Post.”

        – Pass.

    • Kit Molloy

      Have you ever heard of the concept of redemption, Jon?

      The author was conditioned by her experience to behave and beleive the way she did, but through maturity, life experience and critical thinking she’s become a new person with new values.

      You can’t expect her to repent for spent attitudes in the same way you wouldn’t expect an adult to repent for the behaviours of their infancy.

      Give her a break. This was a potent article and has the capacity, authority and insight to challenge those people stuck in the ideological mire of adversarial feminism.

      • toodleoo

        basically he should man up and stop being so butthurt, right?

        face it, whenever a man expresses any sort of discontent he’s always going to be shamed. that’s how it’s always been and how it always will be. that’s exactly why he’s angry, because she’ll be applauded as a hero for writing a flick like this, while he’s going to be treated no different than usually.

        how about setting aside your petty bullshit for once in your life and extending a hand of compassion? he’s the one who needs the break by the sounds of it, and he’s rightfully harsh on the writer. she was a part of a system of abuse against men. that doesn’t just go away overnight.

        people like you are a big reason why men become cynical and downright hateful. if he says anything but you go girl, he’s going to be shamed by someone like you.

        • Devn

          EXACTLY!!! There seems to be a prevailing belief in certain sections of the MRM, where men aren’t allowed to be angry. The reason for this is because the leaders of that section of the movement made a HUGE mistake. They let women have a say. It may have seemed like a good idea at the time, and it may have seemed like these awesome women were ‘enlightened,’ but they are still women. They still shame. They still gaslight. They still invade every male space, and every male discussion. They post stuff like this, saying, “Guys, look at me! I’m a girl but I’m cool though. Aren’t I? Aren’t I cool, guys?”

          Now as for Kit Molloy – I don’t know is she is a male or female, but for all intents and purposes, she might as well be.

          • I have a great deal of respect for anyone’s anger when they are fighting injustice. However there is also a time for acceptance. Change has to start somewhere. Opinions like yours contribute nothing to effecting that change.

            But tell me. What would you rather? This woman had different parents? A different mother? Surrounded by feminists from birth, exactly who did you think was going to open her eyes?

            We all travel a path. I just want the see respect for others in the same way you expect respect for yours.

          • Devn

            I would rather that the woman who wrote the article wrote the exact same article, and had the exact same life. She posts the article on the exact same website, on the exact same day.
            I would rather that the mods allowed the men to have their say about the article without a female mod looking over their shoulder, cluck clucking at every comment she doesn’t agree with. That’s what I would rather.

          • toodleoo

            what a polite way to say “go fuck yourself”. i don’t want to see respect for anyone, i just want to see just rewards doled out. you don’t seem to understand that you’re a part of the problem. you don’t care about men or men’s rights. this whole female anti feminists is just a band wagon that women are slowly getting on because feminism is becoming more demonized by the month.

          • Devn

            “I just want the see respect for others in the same way you expect respect for yours.” – I don’t expect respect for my path, or my beliefs, or statements. I’m a man. We don’t automatically get respect – we have to earn it.

            You on the other hand, are a woman. You automatically get unearned respect, because it’s become a social taboo not to respect every single woman, ever.
            I know that’s hard to understand, but please try. Being a woman, you can never truly understand what we face, just like we’ll never understand what it’s like to be a woman. We’ve been shouted down for decades every time we tried to contribute to that conversation. Now we ask for the same consideration. But I don’t care about any of that, I would still appreciate you as a mod if you did your job, and let the conversation happen in an unfettered way.

            I wouldn’t even mind women chiming in, as long as they weren’t mods. Being a mod makes what you say carry a lot of weight, and it’s unfair to use that weight to shame men who just want to be heard.

      • Jon

        I find it ironic that the ones pushing for the support of redemption are overwhelmingly the ones who committed the offense in the first place. It is neither my job nor my responsibility to forgive her; nor am I a bad person for choosing not to do so. She made her bed, she can lie in it quietly.

        “The author was conditioned by her experience.”

        No; she conditioned herself. Self-awareness is the responsibility of the individual, regardless of the circumstances.

      • Jon

        And comparing “spent attitudes” during the lifetime of one’s adulthood, to those across/between adulthood and childhood is an apples-to-oranges comparison. I can indeed expect her to repent for as long as a I desire…and that’s exactly what I will do. If she or anyone else akin to her doesn’t like this, then I suggest they do not make such egregious fuck-up’s in the first place.

    • Devn

      Right on brother.

    • Neroke2013

      I just said this to Devn and now I’m also going to say this to you.

      I understand the anger, the injuries inflicted upon you by the ahem “fairer” sex left me angry and more than a little hateful as well. I got past the anger though, it wasn’t easy but it can be done and there’s a freedom on the other side of it that no woman will ever be to experience and it gave me a greater appreciation for MGTOW.

      The path you chose is yours, I’m asking you most humbly though to save your anger for the women and their allies that are deserving of it. Throwing it at the writer or the moderator here does nothing. There are scores of people out there that anger can be channeled and directed at.

      OR you can process your anger heal from it and experience the freedom I was talking about. Words really cannot describe this feeling when you get there, and you’ll know when you do

      • Jon

        “The path you chose is yours, I’m asking you most humbly though to save your anger for the women and their allies that are deserving of it. ”

        – And while I do honestly appreciate your candor, I am going to most humbly reject that request. I enjoy watchign the suffering of those who have made the innocent suffer; they’re getting exactly what they deserve.

  • j24601

    It is heartening to read of the resolution of difficulty and liberation from pain. Good for you Hellena, and most likely anyone who is fortunate to encounter you In life. But…

    While I am sure your sorrow is heartfelt, you extend it in a curious way:

    “To the men who feel so alone and isolated within their pain that they see no other course than to end their lives.” And to those who simply endure their pain and isolation, without recourse to suicide, what?

    ” To the men who have dissolved into fear in the bottom of a beer glass.” Really?!!

    “To the men who listen to a thousand reports about another man somewhere who did something bad.” Rather than a culture which views what you are, a man, as innately bad!

    “To the men desperately wanting a boundary and never getting one.” ???

    “To the men who feel closed out and blamed by a sisterhood of tight knit women.” Rather than men who are frozen out and demonised by feminists and feminism.

    “To the men that desperately want to be fathers, but are kept away from it by one or another heirarchy……..”
    Rather than men facing biases, prejudice and disregard as men, fathers, or potential fathers through corrupt courts, discriminatory abortion laws and draconian law enforcement.

    Helena, these are only some of the particular issues which stand in the way of your desire ” …to see your sons grow free and respectful of themselves and each other.” Most, if not all here want the same think, for your sons, and for all men. In order to achieve it, these issues need to be addressed, and I’m sure that you are on board in the fight.

    • Devn

      Exactly. Our issues and the things we care about have already been diluted, as soon as a woman enters the conversation. The most important things to us about the MRM were glossed over by this woman who purports to understand us.

      “To the men that desperately want to be fathers, but are kept away from it by one or another heirarchy……..” —- Just come out and say it. Men who desperately want to be fathers, become fathers, and then have their entire lives and families ripped away by vicious women, on a whim, with the full support of the government.

      • Paul Johnson

        No, women don’t understand us and they never will until they’re forced to take on the same burdens we have, and until they have taken the collective beating that we have, which will be never.

        But I think many more are starting to see for the first time that there is this entire space of humanity and suffering that they never knew existed. Most don’t know. A tiny fraction have seen this space and think they know because they can see the space from the precipice on which they comfortably stand. But they cannot see the fine detail or feel the pain of actually living it.

        Of that fraction, only a small fraction are realizing that men are suffering and have suffered something they know they cannot fully understand (emotionally as well as rationally). From this fraction of a fraction, I will accept sympathy and apology.

    • Hellena Post

      I totally am j24601, and I was a bit taken aback when I read your comment, but as I read over it again, I couldn’t help but agree with the points you made.

      I wrote this in 2012, when I’d just lost a beautiful friend to suicide, and it was all very raw. And to be totally honest…….it was this mans death, and his best friends comments to my love, about how the local witchy goddess group had killed him, that really woke me up. When I first heard what he’d said it shocked me, but I couldn’t stop thinking about it. And I thought and I thought and I thought for days, and it almost hurt I thought so much. I’d never before put myself in the place of oppressor. I was so used to seeing women as the permanently oppressed, that I’d never tried that hat on for size. And it was tremendously uncomfortable so I knew it was good for me 🙂

      This piece was written as I was still emerging from the land of the blind. I’ve come so much further and gotten so much angrier since then 🙂 And encountered so much blind hatred when I express myself :)) And so yes, the points you’ve raised are totally valid.

      I hope that with the next piece that comes when it will, there will be no room left for comments such as these, because there’s no implied sexism or patronism or even traces of it left any more 🙂 It’s been a long journey for me, I have no memories for the first 7 years of my life due to ritual abuse from my father, and my memories only start when he died in the Granville train crash. And then my stepfather and brother were pretty yuck. I had a lot of sorting out and healing to do. I thought that the world of women would be a utopia till I experienced it. But the dream ended for me when I was raped by a group of women, and then had to go into hiding, cause the women owners of the club I was raped at were trying to find me to beat me up! All illusions of women being the kinder sex were gone.

      I’m just thrilled that 4 years down the track, this piece is getting a run in the sun again, and reaching more people. It had a lovely reaction around here when it first came out, and the most delightful reaction I got was from quite a few of my women friends, who saw in my writing that they’d been too harsh on their men, and they felt a renewal of love and compassion. That was the best bit 🙂

      I hope I end up being an asset to the fight for equality, love and compassion for us all <3

      • Austin Dunmore

        Hellena, this is a brilliant and wonderful piece, and my apologies to you for not re-posting it myself from Rudran’s timeline – I lost the link! I’m glad it’s getting fresh attention.

    • Andy C

      Personally I’m not going to nitpick over what looks a lot like remorse and compassion.

  • tout venant

    Thank you.

    • Devn

      Speak for yourself, white knight. After all you’ve seen and been through, you’re still biologically programmed to pander for pussy. Stop it. And stop apologizing for those of us who have broken through that programming – it’s just like we’re all back in high school and you’re in the friend zone. When she screws the jerk football player, and then comes crying to you afterwards, and you say, “Awww, we’re not all like that!”

      It still didn’t get you laid, did it?

      • tout venant

        Bro’, we won’t accomplish anything by behaving like some kind of SJWs..
        Don’t spit bits of MRM quotes. We know better.
        MRM is not MGTOW. We DO welcome intelligent, gutsy women. Especially if they were ennemies.
        As long as they give clear signs of being allies.
        We are at war. Men are shunned, driven to suicide,falselly imprisonned, deprived from ellementary rights…
        We have every right to be angered. But anger will lead to nothing.
        We have to gather friends. Study the ennemy structure. Have our own medias. Wieselly pick our objectives. And make allies. Lots of them.
        (My sex life is fine. Thanks)

        • Devn

          Meh. I get what you’re saying, I just don’t agree. I don’t think women – any women – are going to be able to help us. It’s just too easy for them to, you know, act like women. Look at what the mod is doing in this comments section and multiply that times every woman that ‘joins’ the MRM. They’re sooo supportive of us! As long as we don’t go too far, or offend too many people, or, or, or…….

          Karen Straughan seems to be an exception, but the chick Jasmine, the mod, appears to prove AWALT yet again.

          See what I mean?

          “As long as they give clear signs of being allies” – are you sure that’s what’s happening here? Jasmine shaming men for disagreeing with the piece, is that a ‘clear sign of being an ally?’ Or the writer of the original piece looking for validation, glossing over some of the most important issues… I mean, if she didn’t have several sons, would she even care at all?

          • tout venant

            Karen is my favorite. Don’t forget Errin Prizzey, who fought feminism before you were born. Or Janice Flamengo, who puts her carrer at risks.
            Or Janet Bloomfield who get her children doxed…And maybe Cassie Jay…
            We are not fools. We know about gynocentrism, social marxism and the like…
            We don’t prefer women over Paul Elam, Sargon, Milo, Angry Harry…
            We have to use assets, talent and good will where they are.
            Such well written essay can touch people that would never hear us.
            I say: ‘Welcome and keep writing’.

          • Devn

            Maybe. I hope you’re right.

      • Paul Johnson

        Strict determinist, right?

  • Anthony Zarat

    Thank you for your beautiful words.

  • mark mooroolbark

    It’s never too late to have your eyes opened to the truth. Thanks, Hellena.

  • toodleoo

    fuck this article. it’s too little too late. you’ve done more damage in your own youth than you could ever make up for, and an apology isn’t going to change anything. you’ll never understand the pain men go through, and you’ll never care enough to actually do anything about it besides honeyed words.

    you wanna make the world a better place? teach your daughters to respect and appreciate men. just don’t pretend like you give a damn, that’s spitting in the face of all the bullshit men go through.

    • How do you know what she is or isn’t doing? Just curious…

  • Devn

    That’s all very nice – but this is why I like the red pill. The fact that this site and avfm has female moderators doesn’t work for me. The pure masculine energy that we have immediately gets diluted. We immediately start watching what we say. If we get angry, we gently get scolded in a patronizing way by a female mod (like the guy below). At the red pill, anger is allowed; it’s understood. The men who are pissed off (and rightfully so) are allowed to work through that anger in peace, without women looking over their shoulder. It is a true male space. This space is not. I like how there are some women that are waking up to men’s issues, but every single male space gets invaded by women. I’m pretty tired of it.

    Now go ahead, Mod, and gently scold me about how ‘my anger isn’t helping,’ or whatever. Go ahead and try to constrain and define my masculinity to a definition that suits women.

    • Be as angry as you like. It’s still not going to solve anything. Here’s a tip though. If you don’t like what we post – don’t read it. Simple.

      Relating to Men is a place where women and men can have conversations without the anger and hate. Maybe it’s you who needs to learn about compassion.

      Anyone of either gender who takes issue with this article is showing their extreme bias. There will be feminist detractors as well. They will get a similar response from me – probably worse.

      • Devn

        Don’t tell me what to do. I’ll read what I want to read. I’ll get angry if I want to get angry. Maybe I don’t feel like learning about compassion?

        “Relating to Men is a place where women and men can have conversations without the anger and hate.” —- That sounds like every single woman, ever. ‘Communication is sooo important!!’ – but is it? Because when a woman talks about ‘communication,’ it basically means telling the man what she wants now, and the man doing it. Is that the kind of communication you’re looking for?

        Diluting the conversations like you’re doing will ensure that this arm of the MRM gets exactly NOTHING accomplished. Anger and hatred is the correct response to injustice. Censoring and diluting that anger and hatred removes one of the most powerful tools that men have – one of the most powerful incentives we’ve had since the beginning of civilization. By taking away the anger, you’re taking away a part of the very essence of a man, and what’s left are a bunch of simpering white knights, apologizing for their penises and being soooo grateful that a woman is helping their cause!

        • tout venant

          You’ve every right to be angered. Anger is a powerfull tool.
          But it’s not the only tool.
          Or it makes all of us…Tools.

          • Devn

            When did I say that anger was our only tool?
            Nice wordplay, you really got me there!

          • discussted

            dude please stop, you are overly emotional and take things way out of context. back it down a notch and go live life a bit before typing your anger and frustration. realize that your emotion is the cause of a lot of your own problems more than likely.

        • “Maybe I don’t feel like learning about compassion?”

          Then don’t read the ****ing article, you imbecilic twat! If you don’t want to do something then don’t do it! No one has forced you to be here or read it, even fewer have demanded that you reply to it! If you chose to read the whole piece then you don’t have the right to bitch about the fact that you chose to read the whole damn piece!

          “Anger and hatred is the correct response to injustice.”

          Anger, yes. Anger is a natural response when someone or something is treating you wrongly or unfairly. Hatred? No. You -CHOOSE- to hate and that is your own downfall. There has been one person I have ever hated in my entire life and I found that the poison of that hatred affected the happiness and enjoyment I had for everything else. It took me years to realize that my hatred of someone who has no control over me or what my life has going for it was making it harder and harder to be happy in the things that I enjoyed. Once I let it go, I began to enjoy things in my life as I once had. Maybe you should consider that while you down your “Red Pill.”

          Speaking of, you talk of the “Red Pill” as if you know what it is. You clearly don’t. The Red Pill is not the hatred of women — that actually is misogyny, and I’m very unhappy that I’ve had to type that word out. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that’s what you’re expecting people here to be okay with. Red Pill is choosing to simply not deal with women in your life by your own choice. Accepting that your life as a man is for you to live without the supposed oppression by or the trappings of dealing with women. If you were a real Red Pill subscriber, you would have simply NOT READ THE DAMN ARTICLE! Why? Because it’s written by a woman and you don’t deal with women, right? Red Pill all the way! … Unless you’re looking for a reason to rage, then it’s perfectly okay.

          The truly sad part is that you refuse to see this for what it is: A woman who had taken the path towards gender segregation coming to recognize the gross injustice that is the “Feminist” ideology and coming back to tell her story. Telling men that there are women out there who see and understand just how shitty it is out there for men and that they want men to be able to express themselves as needed, however they need to to improve their own lives. Instead, you just see an oppressive vagina with a keyboard. How is that not any less pathetic than the “Feminists” who look at men writing and only see an oppressive dick with a keyboard?

          • Devn

            You’ve grossly misunderstood my point. My problem isn’t with the article, as much as it is with the mod shaming men for disagreeing with it.
            It seems popular on here to decide what’s best for other people, and to put words in the mouths of others. I am a TRP subscriber, and I did read the article. I shook my head a bit, but wouldn’t have commented at all, until I saw our supercilious little mod lecturing commenters who didn’t agree with the article.
            Red Pill is a set of tools, not a religion. When did I say that TRP was misogynistic? When did I say that I was upset that I was forced to read the entire article? Also, did I call anyone names, or curse at anyone?
            Because you did. It may be that you’re holding in more anger than you think.

          • I’m a firm believer in the fact that things can be misread. I’ll re-read it and see if I get the same conclusion.

            As for complaining about names or cursing, I’ll get back to you about that.

          • Devn

            I understand this isn’t TRP, but the fact that Men need to be allowed to speak freely without tone policing, shaming or guilting is universal. Beyond that, if I were breaking the rules, they could have banned me or deleted my comments. You haven’t seen me attack anyone who supports the article – they have a right to their opinion. My biggest issue is tone policing of men by women (particularly the moderator in this instance). That’s one of the behaviors that allowed feminism to gain the foothold that it has over the years. That’s one of the behaviors that we must be extremely vigilant of.

            As for not being told what to do, I stand by that statement. I don’t like to be told what to do, and I suspect that you don’t either.

            “While it’s a liberal use of the term, you would be hating women in said space simply for being women in said space and that can be interpreted as misogyny.”

            I don’t really mind being called a misogynist, although I would disagree with your interpretation of my statements – I don’t like women invading male spaces, and I don’t like women telling men what they can and can’t say. That doesn’t translate to me hating women (for the record, I don’t hate women. I’m in a happy relationship etc.)
            Thanks for the response and being self-aware. I appreciate your feedback – have a great day man.

          • I speak to men and women the same. Generally, if anything I will admit to having more tolerance for men due to the number of feminists I have to communicate with. What I won’t tolerate is people who don’t read an article and then comment – and to the person who I originally commented that you have taken offence to, it’s patently obvious that he didn’t read the article in full.

            I’m not only the moderator, I am the creator, chief editor and owner of this site.

            All over this thread you have used your own shaming tactics and words. You are what you say you despise.

          • Filbert Almond

            Devn, if you want a space to speak freely without tone policing, then create one. Coming into a space someone else made and demanding it cater to your whims is what feminists do. Jasmin made this space and it can be anyway she wants it to be, period. No one is shaming you for disagreeing. If you want a place to rant and rage (not something I believe is psychologically helpful, but whatevs, different strokes for different folks I suppose), then no one is stopping you from creating one. If it’s good and something people want/ feel some resonance with, then it will be you who gets to set the standards. That is the ways of men. Demanding other people change your surroundings to serve your personal whims is not.

          • Neroke2013

            I get the anger dude! Really I do it’s covering up a whole lot of pain and that pain can be pretty overwhelming and when it comes to the surface like it did with me a couple of months ago I’ve had to endure and sometimes hit back at both men and women that have called me a crybaby and mangina simply for even telling people how difficult it was to find resources and information to deal with the issue.

            The fight to go through just to self actualize much less get into a relationship has been absolutely brutal. MGTOW is a very viable option, and your anger is likely quite justified.

            That anger will consume you though it’s empowering and I’ll always be a little angry at the women from my childhood. Those women though don’t need to be the sole determining factor in your life. It was sheer pride and determination on my part to not have these women be the factor that determines how my future relationships go that is a big part of my recovery.

            I’m not an idiot though, i know that a relationship isn’t a cure all there isn’t a week that doesn’t go by where I have to take a call or have a coffee with a man that’s getting shit on or has been shit on by a woman he’s involved with. There are places to go and skills to gain to deal with that issue though. Staying MGTOW is also a viable option for me and you as well.

            Yeah, that’s it man I got nothing else moving past the anger can and has been done though.

          • Devn

            “Red Pill is choosing to simply not deal with women in your life by your own choice”
            Are you sure you really understand what TRP is? Because you just described MGTOW.
            I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

          • Ah, you’re right. I did discuss MGTOW in place of TRP. That was my failing and I apologize for that and thank you for the correction. I’m not entirely certain how I’d fix that.

          • Paul Johnson

            When you say TRP do you mean the subreddit or the concept of the red pill? Because /trp is a narrow subset of all “red pillers.”

            Also, MGTOW haven’t declared “not to deal with women.”

            I don’t think either of you understand either MGTOW or the red pill.

        • Filbert Almond

          Dude….this is when these issues become a negative force in your life. If it is causing you rage and anger then it is hurting you not helping. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the feeling, the frustratin of having been told your whole life your gender is evil and a disease from which you must be cured.
          However, Women are half the planet, we still have to give them the same respect we want for ourselves or else we mirror the flaws of feminism. Your post feels like a feminist rant, genders reversed. Jasmin does amazing work which I strongly appreciate. If you don’t, fine. She wasn’t telling you what to do, but saying that IF you don’t like it then don’t read it. Totally reasonable.
          More often than not anger is a curse, not something that will help us here. It makes you self righteous, entitled, blinded to others beliefs/feelings/ideas/minds/humanity. It alienated people and does not help our cause but reinforces the negative stereotypes of both men and the men’s movement.
          Anger can have a place at times, but it is rare. Stoicism, rationality, these are the gifts of men, useful skills and qualities to hone and develop which bring peace and contentment, not only for you but others around you.

        • Cenobite

          “Anger and hatred is the correct response to injustice. Censoring and
          diluting that anger and hatred removes one of the most powerful tools
          that men have – one of the most powerful incentives we’ve had since the
          beginning of civilization.”

          Anger and hatred are the spark, and tinder of a fire that consumes everything including the one who holds it. They are not tools, they are as you put it incentives. They awaken the individual, and galvanize them to action. However, they are blinding, and I know you know that because you said “The men who are pissed off (and rightfully so) are allowed to work through that anger in peace.”

          They are also not the correct response to injustices visited upon us. They are the natural reaction to such treatments, and crimes, but if they become the response then you become what you beheld. More over responding with anger, and hate makes us just what they say we are. Seeking justice is the correct response to injustice. Showing the unjust for who, and what they are is how you do it.

          I have never visited TRP forums. I work though my anger, and rage by creating, and learning skills. I let go of my hate because it is blinding, and will poison my life. Living the best life I can in the face of my enemy this is my first salvo. Showing that foe that the quality of my life, and it’s value is not under their control or requiring their acceptance or permission.

          • Radium

            Anger is the natural response to injustice just as love is the natural response to kindness. I’ve always been curious about the reasons people use for arbitrarily restricting one but not the other. Masculine energy can be both incredibly creative or incredibly destructive depending on how it’s used. Anger tends to channel that energy for good or bad, which I suppose is why so many are afraid of men’s anger. However, anger is no more or less poisonous than is love. They both have their natural place, and both can be misused.

            When you suppress anger toward injustice, you create an environment in which one group no longer feels vested in the outcome of society. I agree with Devn’s general comment that many women are still using tone policing, shaming and guilting to control men’s behavior. When done, this feels manipulative, but it also seems to be losing its effectiveness because men are recognizing it for what it is. It is a means for women to maintain temporary control and prevent the discussion that needs to occur. This form of manipulation increases the feelings of isolation that men are feeling toward society.
            Society needs men to be vested. We already know what happens when men are not vested in society. Just look to Detroit and the other areas around the planet in which men are excluded from family life. Social and economic chaos follow each and every time without a single exception. Of course, far too many women seem to be willing to burn civilization in order to maintain control of their children. They use the natural human instinct to protect women as a weapon, and far too few women call them out on this.

            I suppose websites like this are a good start, but women need to go much further. Biased laws and policies will only be changed by women who are willing to scream louder than feminists. The men’s instincts to protect women run too deep for men to organize to promote their own interests when those interests conflict with women.

          • Cenobite

            I never said they were not a natural response. I said that hate and anger are consuming, blinding, and ultimately if unchecked destructive. Devn’s initial complaint is that a woman moderator is going to ‘scold,’ him. Now it seems like TRP Forums moderation is very different to here, and AVfM. However, what would be the reaction if all the mods here, and on AVfM were all male, and still ‘scolded’ Devn for launching a hateful or angry screed?

            I agree with Devn’s general comment that many women are still using tone policing, shaming and guilting to control men’s behavior. When done, this feels manipulative, but it also seems to be losing its effectiveness because men are recognizing it for what it is. It is a means for women to maintain temporary control and prevent the discussion that needs to occur.

            Here in the heart of your comment you make my point. It is loosing its effectiveness because it is failing to garner the emotional response. Men have either become numb to the tactic, or reasoned it out, and now maintain their logic in the face of this attempted manipulation. When it backfires it’s the manipulative woman who then goes ballistic, and looses control.

            This form of manipulation increases the feelings of isolation that men are feeling toward society.

            Agreed, when successfully used it tends to make men feel singled out, and alone. Such as Sir Tim Hunt who considered suicide after he was shamed for a joke purposefully taken out of context. However, it is manipulation, and Sir Tim realizing this was probably what pulled him back from that edge. Now he, and his wife are in Japan with new jobs, and a new beginning. Brittan’s loss is Nippon’s gain it seems.

            Society needs men to be vested. We already know what happens when men are not vested in society. Just look to Detroit and the other areas around the planet in which men are excluded from family life. Social and economic chaos follow each and every time without a single exception. Of course, far too many women seem to be willing to burn civilization in order to maintain control of their children.

            It is not just women who are responsible for this divestment of men in society. Specifically Cis-gendered, hetero-sexual men being divested. It is not in order for a woman to keep her children either. Though that is an incentive for some women to act in this way.

            Why this is happening is at the very core of feminism today. It has been lurking in the make up of feminism since its inception as suffrage, and even reared it’s head in the, “Declaration of Sentiments.” You and I know it as Gender Marxism, and it is rampant in society, culture, academia, and media.

            In order to stoke the fires of the revolution they must have something to rebel against. Enter the, “Cis-Het,” Male who is heaped with all the ills of humanity now. The origin of original sin, and everything evil flows from these men, and the most horrific monster of them all is the great white male the ultimate bourgeoisie.

            They use the natural human instinct to protect women as a weapon, and far too few women call them out on this.

            Indeed we men have been conditioned for better than a million years to protect the tribe, and provide for it. As long as we are willing to carry out this function there is no incentive for most women to change or to call others out on anything. They have what they want so why should they care what problems we face.

            Society will have to burn, to break down, and it’s going to have to get really ugly before enough women fight the gendered Marxist agenda. This is not a battle we as men can really fight, and our best tactic in my humble opinion is to divest ourselves from society, and culture.

            To go on strike. To turn publicly actively sex negative, and then lower our work output to just what we need to comfortably survive. To remove the bourgeoisie male from the proletariat of the Marxist feminist. To act by removing the, “Cis-Het,” male from their society. To enjoy our lives selfishly, and refuse to be the enemy they need us to be. The best thing about this is it is a natural reaction, and is already happening all over the world from the Herbivore Men of Japan, to the MGTOW of the West. Men are going Galt.

          • Radium

            I didn’t mean to sound like I was attacking your post. I picked up on your comment about anger, and expanded a thought I’ve been having about the consequences of our decades long social attack on men.

            However, I think there are reasons to be angry and to not hide that anger. A great injustice has been committed on half of the population. That injustice is forcing men to choose between having a family or having financial security. Men can not have both, which is one of the driving forces to social destruction for everyone. The Soviet Union already taught us that incentives matter. This is no different.

            What’s interesting is that I read today that there is a book coming out next week called “men without work”, which is one of the thoughts I expanded. The basic idea is that men are dropping out of society at an alarming rate. Men are the primary tax producers and the primary innovators. When you lose men, you don’t get a feminist utopia. Instead you get Detroit and South Chicago, which are as matriarchal as it gets.

            Detroit and South Chicago are not places that turned into social wastelands because businesses moved out. These are places that became social wastelands and drove businesses at great expense into the suburbs, which still had intact families at the time. Now these businesses are overseas.

            I also agree with you that the Cis-Het male (aka, Jackbooted White Man) is what the feminists, post colonialists, and the multi-culturalists are using as a means to shakedown society. This is a means to create socialism through the back door. We are now hearing messages that America was never great. Why this message now? Because it voids the message that instead of redistribution, you just need to get an education and work.

            However, feminism is the politicization of female nature. It is the force that drove the “Declaration of Sentiments” and everything that follows. This force is not going away as long as there are resources and security for women. And that there is the real tragedy.

            This politicized female nature destroys security and resources. There may be a few women who understand this, but very few of them will scream louder than the feminists. And that there is how the Western civilizations will end. All civilizations rise and fall like clockwork. Ours will be no different.

          • Cenobite

            Apologies, I misunderstood your post. You raise many valid points here, and give me more to think about. Thank you.

      • toodleoo

        you don’t have a shred of compassion for men. it’s obvious that he’s had his head and heart fucked with, and all you have to say to him is mockery over his anger. how about instead try an “i’m sorry”? you’d be surprised how well it’ll work when it’s genuine.

      • Neroke2013

        I get the anger dude! Really I do it’s covering up a whole lot of pain and that pain can be pretty overwhelming and when it comes to the surface like it did with me a couple of months ago I’ve had to endure and sometimes hit back at both men and women that have called me a crybaby and mangina simply for even telling people how difficult it was to find resources and information to deal with the issue.

        The fight to go through just to self actualize much less get into a relationship has been absolutely brutal. MGTOW is a very viable option, and your anger is likely quite justified.

        That anger will consume you though it’s empowering and I’ll always be a little angry at the women from my childhood. Those women though don’t need to be the sole determining factor in your life. It was sheer pride and determination on my part to not have these women be the factor that determines how my future relationships go that is a big part of my recovery.

        I’m not an idiot though, i know that a relationship isn’t a cure all there isn’t a week that doesn’t go by where I have to take a call or have a coffee with a man that’s getting shit on or has been shit on by a woman he’s involved with. There are places to go and skills to gain to deal with that issue though. Staying MGTOW is also a viable option for me and you as well.

        Yeah, that’s it man I got nothing else moving past the anger can and has been done though.

      • Tubbs 427

        Actually anger is just a basic emotion and has many forms. For me personally, anger is just a stepping stone to acceptance. Most men learn how to channel their anger into more productive ways and methods of accomplishing things.
        Anger is also a method of blowing off steam.
        You clearly don’t know how to relate to men. All you seem to want to do is have all ‘communication’ on your terms – that is rather controlling and most men I know don’t like that. One of the reasons many males don’t like feminised spaces.
        “Anyone of either gender who takes issue with this article is showing their extreme bias.” Really, nothing to do with lived experience? Not very compassionate of you to be so offhanded with people’s personal emotions.

      • Samuel Kimathi Muriithi

        I honestly see no difference between this site and hooking up smart and Christina hoff. You’re all basically gynocentric pick up artists of the female variety.

      • Samuel Kimathi Muriithi

        “Anyone of either gender who takes issue with this article is showing their extreme bias”. basically anyone who disagrees with you is biased, MGTOW is the only movement I’ve seen that tells men they don’t have to kowtow to women’s wholly unreasonable expectations most anti feminist women I’ve read all seem to be raging gynocentrists who want men to bow to them for calling themselves anti-feminists.

        They have this vision that men are so grateful to have a woman like them they can’t wait to thank her and feel validated. You’re not a savior of men and we don’t need your self righteous help you can’t reprogram millions of years of behavior anymore than we can that’s why we opt out and stay out.

        Women seem to fall under 3 categories;

        the feminists who are out to enslave men while they spit on them on a daily basis and make them say how grateful they are for their own enslavement

        tradcons who want men to bow and kiss their feet for “allowing” them to go back to the plantation with open arms and the…

        looters the ones who just want more stuff for themselves regarless of the injusticess meted out on men to achieve these are the worst gynocentrists because they consciously and unconsciously believe they deserve to be compensated by men for their existence and their great sacrifice of having wombs and vaginas and they will only notice anything about men’s issues when those issues directly affect their first born sons then they will pretend they give a fuck about us and also expect us to bow to them for the unmatched favor of taking 2 seconds out of their privileged lives to look in our direction with their faux empathy.

    • Black Knight Fool

      Be grateful for those who are at least hearing us out. If you want to vent your frustrations then go do in a MGTOW circles. This is not one.

  • Chris

    ‘ And in the vacuum of role models they saw in their immediate experience, had to put together these cardboard cutouts that were a pastiche of movies, and books and magazines they read, rather than actual experience.’

    This reminds me of a WW2 documentary where John Wayne got booed off the stage at a USO show by Marines in the Philippines, when he came out in a cowboy costume. A veteran said it was because they’d bought into his tough guy role model that they were all there getting killed.

  • Chir

    Apology accepted. I decided on a path of mghow a long time ago and have been quietly enjoying life since then. At my current age I simply bear no ill will toward women and try to treat all people with basic dignity. I just pulled away from the shrill hate of men by media and feminists. I could not oppose it because there are too many enablers. Best to walk away and enjoy life. However you as a woman with son’s are going to watch as society demonizes and denigrates them throughout their lives and you will have to live with the fact that in part you helped set the stage your sons will play their lives out on. Don’t apologize to men, apologize to your sons.

    • Varun

      Well said, chir. That is the true mgtow spirit if you minus the rage it accompanies. While there are MRMs who still think they can change the world, there are MGTOWs who just don’t want to participate in any of that because they don’t want to get hurt. Call it a weakness, call it ignorance, whatever it is, we don’t care. All I want to do is live peacefully and happily, and I will stay away from everything with a negative aspect to it.

  • Jonathan Friedman

    I was really digging this piece until here:

    “I’m still totally stunned and overwhelmed by the fact that as a general rule, and with everything that is discussed about Female Genital Mutilation and the repercussions of it……that there is no fuss made about circumcisions which no-one can deny is the same thing.”

    I think circumcision is a valid debate. But to equate it to female genial mutilation? No. FGM has a single purpose – to stop women from receiving pleasure during sex. Circumcision does no such thing. Does it dull sensitivity? Probably some. But I am circumcised – and I don’t feel mutilated. Nor do I feel like my sex life is anything less than satisfying.

    As for the rest of this piece – thank you. It was measured, thoughtful, and appreciated.

    • Devn

      I think you might want to read up on that issue a little more, buddy. It may not be the same thing as female circumcision, but it’s pretty damn bad. I had a part of my dick cut off when I was a baby, and I had no say in it at all. Does that sound okay to you?
      Were you circumcised as a baby, or as a teenager? If you were circumcised at birth, how would you even know whether you feel mutilated or not?

      • Jonathan Friedman

        I think you might be a little confused. Two things. One, my main point was that it ain’t the same as FGM (which I wrote and you acknowledged). Two, yes I was circumcised as an infant. “How would you even know whether you *feel* (emphasis mine) mutilated or not?” Uhm, because I’m a sentient being and I know how I feel?

        • I am also a sentient being, I have not been circumcised. My ‘feeling’ is that it’s wrong to force an amputation on a baby. Regardless of sex, regardless of the reason. We don’t allow it for anyone other than boys, That is also wrong.

        • Devn

          Well, for the record, I do feel a little mutilated. I would like to have had the choice as to whether a chunk of my dick got cut off or not.
          That’s all.

        • The Spooky Ghost

          Your personal thoughts on circumcision and FGM are irrelevant.

          In allowing circumcision, we are denying boys of their right to bodily integrity. Girls are already afforded these rights, so FGM is irrelevant.

        • Wide Awake

          It sounds like you are dissociative about MGM because you have expereinced it. You do not have to argue that it is okay simply because to argue against it calls into question your self concept.

    • Circumcision is designed to make it difficult to masturbate. It its designed to reduce sexual enjoyment as well. I get what you’re saying, but what we are talking about cutting off a piece of a perfectly healthy child for no reason other than some religion or just for aesthetics. In this regard they are the same. It’s a practice that needs to stop.

    • Jeff

      Nope. Your statement about male and female circumcision is really dumb.

      http://blog (dot) practicalethics (dot) ox (dot) ac (dot) uk/2014/02/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

    • Paul Johnson

      You definitely need to read up. You’re still operating on pro-circ propaganda. There are four major types of FGM, and circumcision is quite equivalent to one of them (type 2).

      As for the purpose of MGM, the purported reason has changed with the ages. The rash of it that is affecting the westernized nations does indeed go back to interfering with men’s sexuality. But today it’s rationalized as being healthy (but it is not).

      Look at some of the cockamamie shit Dr. Kellogg was going on about w/re to circumcision.

      • gwallan

        There are variants of male circumcision also. As an example subincision involves cutting the urethra open from the base of the penis to the tip AND removing foreskin. This is practiced by some aboriginal tribes in Australia.

  • Well said, nicely done. I hope it doesn’t take everyone a friends death and 5 sons to see how harmful the current climate toward men is. This article, I hope, will help with that.

  • Cenobite

    Thank you for sharing this, and the apology. It is accepted with humility, and gratitude. The gulf though is too broad, the damage done will not be undone with any ease. Too many slights, wounds, and hammer blows have fallen. Men have listened for too long as they have been painted as monsters by feminists, and the media. The turning away is growing. It’s day 600 of the Mouse Utopia experiment, and the, “beautiful ones,” are here.

  • Wade Jordan

    Your apology is nothing but words.
    Put some action behind your intent and I might reconsider your sincerity.
    Until such evidence is presented, I will continue doing my own thing without the approval or involvement of women.

    • Black Knight Fool

      Its better then nothing. I am sure it wasn’t easy to do.

  • I’m not sure that I can ever view feminists or feminism without some level of distrust or hatred at this point, having been born in 1986 and grown up with some of the worst of it. I’ve grown up in a society that not only treated me as meat for the grinder, but as a villain and abuser. It has shaped my life in more negative ways than you can know, from seeing my own sexuality as innately predatory and harmful, to my own pain and anguish as a sign that I am a violent abuser waiting to take it out on a presumably innocent woman. It took me decades to find my own way out of it, if I ever actually did, and along the way also watched as the women who abused me were also absolved of guilt.

    An apology is well and good, and I suppose that there is something to be said about seeking forgiveness. But acknowledgement of wrongdoing does not in and of itself grant you redemption, and apology does not undo the pain and suffering that I and others like me have endured. You have to live with your part in that, just as we have lived and continue to live with the end result of it.

    It’s too late for most of us men here. Wounds can heal, but scars will always remain. What you CAN do is try to save the boys that come after us. They are in for a rough lot in life, and like us, will be without anyone to help them unless someone steps up. If you truly seek redemption, then stop worrying about forgiveness and absolving yourself. Work to make things better for the future.

    • Samuel Kimathi Muriithi

      That is an awesome explanation of the pain most of us have gone through and I can’t help but suspect (with good evidence) most anti feminists are changing their tune for the same reason feminists and all other manner of gynocentrists do, self interest.

      Women have started realizing that to keep most of their comfort and well being (with making the least amount of effort) is tied to men staying on the plantation and now they’ve realized that what they initially though was impossible (men actually overriding their powerful innate pussy addiction to reject abuse from women for reward in the form of validation) is happening and it’s damage control time.

  • Mike Richard

    This is why I’m an MGTOW. MGTOW is a group that is getting stronger which each passing day. We read stuff like this everyday, but we just don’t care no more. We feel that the damage is already done and it can’t be fixed. Women started to wake-up too late.

    • Varun

      I agree. The best thing to do is not to play. And no, we’re no misogynists; we’ve just found a permanent solution to a permanent problem. Adapted to survive and not let the pain and anger get to us. #MGTOW

    • Samuel Kimathi Muriithi

      The gynocentrism is still alive and well, best to just not play.

  • Rudolf Wurlitzer

    As another commenter said, apologize to your sons, not us. At least one of them will experience the undertone of disdain that society has for most men, they can thank “radical lesbian feminists” of the past for playing a major part in that. Thanks for all your hard work, mom!

  • jj

    Congratulations. You’ve accomplished what a small minority of women and the majority of men do innately; achieved the reasonable level of common sense necessary to live and not treat yourself like a victim when you aren’t one.

    • Hellena Post

      🙂 In my life experience at least, I’ve experienced victims as often being the most vicious abusers. A classic example of one finger pointing at another, with three pointing back at themselves. Of which they’re in complete denial of. Does my head in 🙂

  • Very beautifully put. And as a former Male Radical Feminist – I know I’ve apologized a thousand times. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head when you indicate we are dealing with powerarchy not patriarchy. I personally believe (and yes call me a conspiracy theorist!) that the feminism we’ve come to know was perfectly conceptualized and engineered from way up high by a select few.

  • Phill

    There is a trust gap. Men have been mistreated and manipulated by women for so long it’s hard to see you as anything other than some random bitch looking for validation. I don’t know if you mean anything you said or not but the best thing you can do is to key your sons into how women really think. Tell them how they will be manipulated and how to deal with it.

    Honestly the tone policing is fucking rediculous. We aren’t women, this is how we fucking talk. You can’t expect decades of abuse to be undone by a few words.

    Personally I don’t think women can really be “allies” in the MRM at all. From personal experience it just seems like y’all are jumping on the bandwagon because it’s edgy. It seems women will never really support men unless they have no other choice (sharia law). It’s just not in your benefit. Women profit from the current system.

    The best thing to do as a man is opt out of society. Fuck dating or marriage or even sex and just aim for a low paying non stressful job and ride it out until the pendulum swings in the other direction and women are forced to value men again.

  • shut up cunt. Nobody cares.

  • RV

    You have finally worked out there is an oligarchy and its more to do with class than sex and men aren’t bad,bad, bad, bad.

    No shit sherlock.

    • Jon

      Lol seriously, do they want a cookie?

  • Paulo

    Great thanks and gratitude to both Hellena for such a courageous and real article, and Jasmine for posting it.

    Change in cultural attitudes takes time, and the courage and honesty of people to look at their own part and see a bigger picture. To my mind this article is a great example of that.

    It takes real guts to stick your head up and take the lead, and also take the flack that comes with it. I support those who are taking the lead, male and female.

    Well done.

  • Sage Mage

    While I believe the article was written to express the experience of one woman I have an issue with it. During the last 30 years or so men have been falsely accused of Rape, mental abuse and physical abuse. Men have been taken to the cleaners in divorce court,lost houses, cars, pets and a lot of money and some have had to spend time in jail because of these false allegations or were unable to pay the extortion money called alimony. The big issue is trust. Men can no longer trust women. When a man says hello to a women or holds a door open for her, she can yell “rape” and have that man in jail, possibly for years if not the rest of his life. Women have very little control put on them now and have shown that they can be as cruel and oppressive as any man. Most men have something called honor, women have shown they have none. Men have been beaten down so much that women are like a hot stove. Almost everytime a man has anything to do with a woman he gets burned. After awhile men learn that woman are dangerous an completely untrustworthy. A man has something truly bothering him emotionally and comes to a woman for a little emotional support the woman looks at him like he is a worm and then laughs at him after he is out of sight. Woman today simply can’t be trusted.

    • i largely agree with you because I know where you’re coming from. Sage, but why do take issue with the article over your points? Is it because the article didn’t cover them?

      • pardon the punctuation there. sitting in the sun and can’t see my keyboard :/

        • Craig Martin

          Excuses, excuses!

    • gwallan

      “Women have very little control put on them now and have shown that they can be as cruel and oppressive as any man.”

      Historically the sexes policed themselves. Notably men created huge infrastructures to do this. Those institutions, to this day, are still primarily targeting males. With the advent of feminism women collectively are no longer living up to that original bargain.

  • Sage Mage

    I am afraid I am not a very good writer. I didn’t express myself as I had wanted to. I was merely trying to point out that while her article was very compelling and well written the main problem facing men today is the lack of trustworthiness when it comes to women. I do appreciate what Ms. Post had written and I do accept her apology. Mostly, until many laws are changed to make things truly equal and women are held to the same standards as men trust is going to be a major roadblock to stop this ridiculous gender war. When mainstream feminists are laugh out of wherever they are spreading their vicious lies by women this nonsense won’t stop. thank you for responding.

    • That’s why I asked. I agree with you on requiring the laws to change before things get better. No war is won on a single battle front though. The hope for me is that courageous posts like Hellena’s will be written and seen by her former peers or even moderate feminists and they will (ideally) start the journey to open their minds – that maybe altruistic but it’s not without hope.

      I’ve now met quite a few former feminist activists who have had their eyes opened. It’s quite powerful as their circle of influence is broader than ours will ever be while we are preaching to the converted.

      Their are so many facets to women (and society) understanding the issues facing men. They are far bigger or broader than the legal aspect but without shifting public sentiment we have no hope of changing the laws. It’s really occurred to me writing this to you that I probably didn’t share it as much for men as I did in the hope that it will be seen and read by more women.

      I am of the firm belief that if we all do what we can in our own way, then we will slowly see change.

      • Hellena Post

        There is a lot of former peers, and incredibly staunch feminists, and male feminists, and midwives, and homeschoolers, and all sorts that have read this piece now, and there’s certainly things that they can hear from me, that they would never hear from a ‘man’ (and believe me I hate how that must feel for many men on a daily level), and I had such a flow of powerful messages from mostly women….. Many stories made their way back to me about women on the edge of leaving/moving on from their men, and realising they’d been too harsh, and reconnecting on a deeper level. Many people were deeply moved, and many of them saved their stories for when we were face to face, and I’ve been equally moved.

        I’m one of those people that folk either love or hate, and I make them uncomfortable, because they never know what I’ll say, and my honesty can really challenge them. And I talk about these things, and circumcision, and my relationship with my man, and sex, and I make hand spun and crocheted phalluses with knitted foreskins, cause it’s funny how in a so called phallocentric society, we’re not allowed to see them except in porn. And that can often be intimidating. I watched this series where they were introducing a market stall holder in Tasmania who made cunt pillows, and it was laughed about how you could never do that with penises!! I determined at that moment that I’d do exactly that. Not cushions, but crochet hand puppets, with an equal she.

        Everything my man and me and my family are about is bonding, community, respect and sovereignty for all living beings. To varying degrees of course, but it’s certainly in our consciousness. We try to live it with everything we do. We’ve both been abused, by both men and women, and we’ve both found each other and a deep and abiding love and sexuality, nearly 17 years down the track. We adore each other, and are both helping each other out of our PTSD holes, and building trust all the time. And we talk honestly about our fuckups and our flaws and our patterns to anyone who is interested, and have saved a few marriages along the way.

        I do everything in my power to create the world I wish to live in for me and my love and my children and every other being. And create as much beauty and bonding as I can, as the equal and opposite to destruction, of which there has been so much.

        Thank you for your honest reactions, and your mistrust expressed, and your anger, and your vulnerabilities and for all your strong emotions. Thank you all for your steps in whichever path you choose as the way to your truth. Thanks for being so real 🙂

  • Sage Mage

    Putting it differently I just simply have a problem trusting anything a woman says. I don’t hate women, I hate what has been happening with feminism and the loss of women that would be a partner in men’s lives. That a man could trust.

  • Varun

    “To the boys who listen to their mothers talking to their girlfriends about the latest bastard thing their man did. To the men who listen to a thousand reports about another man somewhere who did something bad.”

    This touched me because I was subjected to exactly that during my childhood and adolescence. Specially the later part.

    Whenever I heard something in the news about a “horrible demonic rapist” destroying the life of a girl, I felt like I was shamed. I don’t know why, I didn’t know how it got to me, but it just did. I read articles, I heard people discussing about how bad ‘male sexuality’ is and how harmful and poisonous it is.

    Had I a positive experience, had I had people who told me, “Don’t worry. Just because one man committed a crime doesn’t mean the entire sex cass gets the blame, no matter what others say.” But I didn’t. All I did get to know was a fine community of people who were understanding and supportive of each other; enraged no doubt, subjected to a lot of negative infuences no doubt, but the positive atmosphere for those who had been subjected to injustice more than sufficed and balance everything out.

    I could say I am happy that there are women who are aware of men issues; for that you people have my deepest respects. I have been subjected to this toxicity too, and I only hope that the future generations do not have to face it too. I’ve been forced to go my own way, but I hope few men ever get ‘forced’ to do so. #MGTOW

  • John Doe

    I am one of what is coming to be called the ‘lost’ generation – pre-millenial, post-Gen-X men.

    I avoided 3 bad marriages, by breaking off engagements to women who buy into this feminist cult… but I am saddened and lonesome, because I want children and don’t think I’ll ever have them. A family. Someone to grow old with.

    The recent generations of women, brainwashed by your old coven, let’s call it…. they hate us. They want everything and refuse to pay its cost – they hate us, fear us, so irrationally, just being men… male sexuality is damn near criminalized – just look at the law passed in California, look at Sweden, where years later, anecdotal evidence is enough to throw Assange in prison for years…

    Look at the divorce rate – look at the number one cited reason of the overwhelmingly female population of filers of no-fault divorce – ‘boredom’.

    We are seen as temporary treats, disposable wallets, sources of blood for mosquitos.

    And we are loathed so hard for even being ‘necessary’ for that, for our role in the procreative process, that soon, if a man wishes to remain assured that he will not go to jail on the word of a harpy alone, he’ll have to have a lawyer and a legal clerk and 5 witnesses. Inverted sharia, in a new coat of paint.

    There are gems. There are women who wake up, there are those smart enough to see the brainwashing. But it’s intstitutionalized. It’s literally acculturated now, it’s not fringe anymore.

    While the world burns, we are told we are rapists and must be re-educated. That we must cleanse ourselves of the Original Sin of heterosexual male-ness. And then we are permitted second-class citizenship in this new Utopia your former Sisters are peddling.

    All of this said – I am glad you got out.

    People don’t believe me, they call me crazy, when I explain this to them. Show them the marxist roots. Show them class warfare re-adopted to Gender Warfare.

    Lenin’s speeches with nouns swapped, a splash of color here and there, not much more – calls for the vagina-bearing bolshevik to destroy the ‘patriarchy’.

    The ‘patriarchy’ is a boogey-man. A figment. In their shared, fractured, replacement reality. A simulacruim of pain and child abuse and egotism and marxist rhetoric, stewed in the cauldrons of cloistered girls never asked to the prom, feeding their hatred, feeding their resentment.

    There are literally admissions from your former sisterhood, that they selectively abort male babies. That they ‘daydream’ about drowning their male children because they ‘know’ that they will grow up to be the monsters they imagine.

    These women are jovial about ending society. They literally want to destroy the family unit, destroy any institution that promotes it – they want to upend civilization.

    Further, they cohort with those who deny reality for other reasons – identity politics. Intersectionalism. All of this, different strains of the same viral disease.

    A disease difficult to fight, for even if one has the antigen, the infected will see it as tantamount to death.

    I am glad, again, that you made it out. I am glad that you made it back to the other side.

    But despite the facade and the bravado I put on in my everyday life, my breath is not held on whether or not the epidemic will end before it is too late.

    I am of the belief that we are not slaves to determinism, but that some undeniably deterministic systems exist. Biology cannot be readily denied without denying the fabric of reality.

    Please, raise your boys to see beyond the matrix. Please, do not let the public schools feminize them and brainwash them.

    We as a species don’t have many more generations to turn the ship around.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to get back to my dinghy in the middle of the pacific, because there’s no hope for me, but there may be for some.

    Reason is the antigen to fear and hatred. Knowledge purges ignorance.

    Do not deny reality.

    • Hellena Post

      I have tears down my face for your beautiful and eloquent loneliness…….I wish you a sweet warmth of a virtual hug! My heart breaks here, and later on tonight, when I read this to my love, who’s inside reading the last chapter of Lord of the Rings to the kids, his will too. Because I recognise every word of what you write so beautifully, and it horrifies me that it is indeed so prevalent, so easy for venemous words about men to fall into every conversation. I’m so sorry for the pain that is inflicted so thoughtlessly on every level on our boys, and even in the midst of my dyke days I didn’t stand for bullying.

      I’m so glad I made it out too. And I’m glad that my man stuck with me through my judgements, till we took each other as a mirror, and I stopped acting priveleged. I’m so glad I said fuck you society, my man’s not going to work just because he’s got a penis, and I’m glad that he wasn’t too hard to convince, especially after our first child together. This decision has led to massive compromise on the things we have and where we live, but it’s a price we’re all more than willing to pay. Having him as my birthing super hero, and witnessing the potent magic of a father in our childrens lives every day, as their dad, playmate, conspirateur, teacher and friend is awe inspiring. We have as little gender difference between us as is possible in this society. We’re all aware of how it often operates in the world out there, but we’re all respectful friends mostly. Of course there is boundaries, and it’s not all do what you like land, but in general we’re mates.

      After sending my first daughter into the machine, we refuse to do that with our 7 together, and we homeschool and naturally learn, following their interests, and valuing everyones sovereignty. We take them to as many different places, temples, festivals, events and educational centres as we can, and are always learning about everything. My elder boy and girl go shooting at a gun range, with some very dear friends of ours who are equally gender equal and sovereign. My boy loves meat, guns and cars, but is also the most loving big brother you could imagine, who loves his little brothers, and is nearly always rassling and playing with or reading to them, when he’s not hanging out with his other homeschooled mates who are equally sovereign. He likes gaming, he’s incredibly perceptive about adults and their emotional patterns, and he gives great advice. And my girls hate being treated like ‘girls’. They really dig their friends who happen to be boys wrestling with them and rough housing, and can get on with everyone from girly girls to rough boys. They all have a strong internal sense of fairness and justice that we fully support.

      It’s been really hard in many ways, going against so many societal flows, but so incredibly worth it. And I for one will keep doing everything within my power to keep creating the world I wish to live in, and for us all to feel acknowledged and loved.

      Thank you so much for your beautiful expression 🙂

    • gwallan

      “The ‘patriarchy’ is a boogey-man.”

      It’s actually a projection. It’s source is those women with the least capacity for empathy with the male condition. Their only possible resort is to project their own impulses and thought processes. “Patriarchy” describes quite well how things would work if women or, more correctly, feminists were running the show(genders reversed of course).

      • John Doe

        Correct.

        They lack the capacity to understand or appreciate the natural balance, and so they seek to control in the same way they believe themselves controlled – though such control never actually existed applied upon them.

  • Filbert Almond

    This was wonderful. The ending paragraphs brought a tear to my eye.

  • ColonelNeville

    Overwhelmingly MEN have imagined, thought of, designed, innovated, created and built virtually the entire physical, intellectual, artistic and moral world. Hey, don’t look at me, fella!

    If we removed the efforts and often daunting, terrible sacrifices of men and relied only only those physically made and maintained by women, the world would be a windswept wasteland collapsing into animal barbarism within a generation – and one that would never come to be. Kind of like Detroit.

    Men can create civilization technically without input from most women – most women can only enjoy the civilization that men and only men have provided – literally with their blood.

    Seems to me many women want equality in work as long as it’s not physically demanding, dangerous, risk death, dirty, low status, dull or frightening. Hey, I know how they feel. I guess this is why great and the best of women can do things like run a ranch, fly a jet, fix a pipe, shoot competently and inspire others.

  • ColonelNeville

    Relating to men is one of the most essential, useful, smart, thoughtful and important empirical insight websites I have fortunately ever gotten to know. Outstanding really. Bravo and five shiny stars!

  • Ceara

    Luckily I escaped the sisterhood before they got to me as badly as they got to you, but I still feel guilty even now. I plan on having children one day. What if I still had those shit views that I used to have, and I gave birth to a son? What might I have done to him? What kind of terrible mental and emotional problems might I have inflicted on him without even realizing I was doing it?

    The very thought terrifies me to my very core because there ARE feminist mothers who put their sons through that kind of mental torture. And then when those very boys grow up to be emotionally unstable and wind up acting out in an unacceptable way, those same feminists add those poor boys to their list of men who prove that we live in a patriarchy.

    • gwallan

      You will do very well with sons. However I would warn you to keep a very close eye on what they are being taught at school when the time comes.

  • skillet

    The point is now to keep men atomized. Any men’s group at Harvard, for example, will be punished.

  • Guiltyspark

    I think the speech is great and she is an all around good person so this is a tangent. The following is just something that peeves me

    ” I discovered my feminine side, that I’d never felt safe enough to explore before. I had a cleavage! ”

    What does cleavage have anything to do with your gender? That’ be like if a guy said he discovered his masculine side and started to walk around shirtless in places that aren’t warm enough to justify taking their shirt off.

    • I can’t speak for all women, but for myself who has one – a cleavage is something feminine about me that I love. I think it’s fair to assume that the majority of both men and women would agree that a woman’s shape at least in part determines her femininity. Even for larger girls, a great cleavage can be attractive. For the ladies I know who are smaller chested (flat chested) they often say they don’t feel feminine. Obviously there is far more to a woman’s femininity than shape, however.

      Perhaps you’re confusing traits of the gender with physical traits? Or maybe I am. I had never thought to differentiate between what makes me feel feminine and what might be true in terms of personality.

      What I do recognise and I think Hellena’s point is that radical lesbian feminists probably don’t do much to show themselves as sexual and feminine beings. They tend to dress more masculine and cover themselves. I hope that isn’t a gross generalisation – I’m just speaking from my experiences.

  • discussted

    Great article and this world needs more women like this to speak up because for decades the only voices we got to hear were raging and stupid feminists. men had no advocate .

    there is a growing movement and disgust for everything feminist because while it says its just about equality for women, what it has done in its many sects has been the near ruin of society and the sure ruin of many families and lives.

    feminism is the new kkk or nazi . womens rights advocates are just going to have to find new labels for their cause because feminism will be seen more and more as failure, misandry, bigotry and corruption.

  • Alex

    You don’t need to apologize, for anything, Jasmin. You, as many others, have fallen on a crooked path. But unlike those many, you realized that you walked close to the edge of the cliff, and managed to get back into reality. You are not at fault for all that men have to go through. You have nothing to apologize for, but as a man, I must thank you for all your kind words, and for the lessons of life that you shared. A happy life to you!

  • Max

    Good article. Dunno what’s up with some of the weird pricks in the comments though. Seems like they need to chill out.

  • Viz R

    too little too late…

  • TerminatriX

    Still lesbian, because sexuality and never politics. But the article is pretty much right, and i’ve been implementing a similarish healing mission for a while. for reasons.
    1)i like bringing people joy/relaxation and it is actually terrifying that simply not being hostile/predatory can bring so much of it.
    2) i rather like guys being around – friends, colleagues, other gamers, simply interesting people. Plus the only thing that can upset and disrupt animalistic, hierarchical highschool girl pattern cliques which are my pet hatred and imo have no legitimate place in an adult life – and any interference to that end is very much appreciated and within my means returned in favours.

    3)elementary compassion and human consideration.

  • Matt

    Apology accepted Hellena.

    I’m just glad when I was growing up my mother and father insisted on me being more active as a teen. I fortunately never encountered Feminism or its propaganda in high school, I had to drop out of school because my health declined at the time. I’m thinking about getting my GED, and I am not sure I want to try and go to college, I don’t see the point as a lot of colleges are being infected with Feminism’s disease.

    I’ve been through a lot when growing up. I almost lost my life a couple of times when I had to drop out of High school, I was always feeling sluggish and tired, so I dropped out. And 2 months after doing so, I got very sick went to a clinic to get checked on, my blood pressure was well into the 200’s, I almost lost my eyesight, was rushed to the hospital, both my kidneys ended up shutting down. The Women who was there told me if I didn’t go when I did, I would not have made it through the night. I would have been gone.

    And weeks after that happened, my Father ended up passing away from End-stage liver disease from drinking, I think he knew he was slowly dying so he kept drinking anyway to dull the pain or to escape the reality of what was going on.

    And to put another topping on that pizza, when I was on my laptop at the time I had a strange sensation going on with my eyes and my motor cognition was being impaired. I was having 2 strokes. Was rushed to the hospital again. I managed to have only small damage to the part of my brain where my memory is located, I do have a slight learning disability because of it. My speech was impaired for a couple of weeks, the doctors were pretty surprised by that.

    Which gave me a better outlook on life, but some times I do get sad and feel beaten down. I don’t want that feeling controlling me. I am making slow progression of fixing my life, its very slow, but I appreciate the help I have been given in life. I don’t want to waste it. And about you changing Hellena. It’s better late to change, than to never change at all. Thank you.

    To some who are angry.
    I’m very familiar with Anger. Anger can be positive, or it can be negative. Anger is a natural response for injustice, and being treated like a piece of shit, it can easily control you if you don’t use it for some thing positive. Anger is a very powerful tool for motivation and change, use it for that. Don’t use it for inflicting violence, or to treat people like shit with it.

    My 2 cents.

  • CeterisParibus

    Wow !

  • Sage Mage

    What would a woman know of men’s problems? It is nice that a woman acknowledges that men have problems that are unique to the gender but I have serious doubts that a woman can truly help a man. I am addressing this to Jasmin,.

    • Sage, it’s a fair point to some degree and I would still like to address it. One of the main things I campaign for is more and better research into men’s experiences. I want to see this so that clinicians have a masculine framework additional to the feminine one. So that they can offer better solutions for men, particularly in crisis, rather than viewing therapy through a female lens. So that’s a large part of why I do this.

      • Sage Mage

        I agree and thank you. Men can generally take of their own problems if left to do so, but, as we are just human there are times when help is needed. Places where men’s issues are understood and can help to deal with these issues are sorely needed. There are numerous taxpayer funded institutions and help centers for women and very few for men. One thing that needs to be addressed is the stigma against men to seek help. If we need help in such a manner then we are weak and pathetic. Men who are seen as such are scorned and looked upon with contempt. Women do not want such men around them which is the main reason many men kill themselves. They fear they may never find the love and happiness they crave and deserve.These men are generally good men and need a little help and their self-confidence improved so that they may go into society and lead happy, productive lives.

        As ridiculous as it sounds women need to stand up for men. The situation is so bad that men are fearful of having much to do with women. They fear being imprisoned, having any and all means of supporting themselves let alone others. They fear the stigma placed on them by society for not “manning up” to what society wants of them. They fear the punishments and humiliation for doing what used to be “manly” things to do. Nowadays, a man can be accused of rape, imprisoned and being raped while in prison just for opening a door or looking at a woman. While most women may not mind or secretly like for men to do that type of thing a man cannot just look at a woman and tell just what kind she is. I am trying to be brutally honest. If my honesty saves even one man I will have helped. Again, Thank You.

  • Sage Mage

    Ignore that latest post. was in a bad mood. I apologize.

  • Black Knight Fool

    Wow good job

  • B1663r

    You are still harming men… just stop… The best thing you can probably do for your sons is to smack them around, then abandon them viciously. Go back to being a lesbian. Every single person I know IRL raised by someone like you has massive mental health issues in adulthood…

  • Rick Segreda II

    I happen to be gay man who, under the influence of NYC-area talk shows, left-wing media, and Norman Lear sitcoms, was precociously pro-feminist as a boy, but became disillusioned with the movement after college, when I moved to Santa Cruz, California, a community virtually run by enraged lesbian feminists — Andrea Dworkin was a routine and very popular speaker. The beginning of the end for me transpired when Robert Bly’s “Iron John” became a pop-culture phenomenon and I began to gravitate towards pro-masculine men’s groups.

    The feminist community in Santa Cruz, which had a huge overlap with the lesbian community, responded to this phenomenon not only with hysterical outrage, making exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims that this movement was about the enslavement ad oppression of women, but much worse, with the collusion of local gay male partisans of the feminist movement, began to spread rumors that the various leaders in this new men’s movement were sexually abusing women. Yet when I asked one prominent bisexual feminist who was making these claims in her column for a feminist bulletin, she admitted to me, casually as if it were no big deal, that she was intentionally distorting the facts. The ends justified the means and all that, and besides, women were such “victims” that they could do no wrong.

  • KyleAdmin

    as someone who was born in the early 80s, i was lucky to have a mom that loved men. ( and not in the sleeping around way) she encouraged manhood. She appreciated men. I had 4 sisters i was the only son..As I grew up tho i learned about the absolute disdain society has for men. And how women are cherished like goddesses. Its only getting much worse. And I think it will lead to the collapse of western society eventually. Im sorry but feminism has coused women SERIOUS mental issues. And they arent worth bothering with on a relationship basis. So not sure what Ill do with the next 3o or 40 years of my life yet. But this is deffneitly not how i thought my life was gonna be. My mother tried her best to make me all around good man. That iam. But something happened to women..and i just coudnt be bothered anymore